Tuesday, June 2, 2009

Addressing General Complaints Re: 4e continued

Continuing on from the last post.

4e is more about roll-playing than 3rd edition.

Bullshit I say!

I don't even understand how this claim can be made. Is there a rule in the 4e books that I haven't noticed that says "Thine adventures shall consist of nothing more than combat after endless combat?" or "Speak not with thine DM's NPCs, except to mock them as thine broadsword cleaves they're worthless skulls from their bodies?"

Ok, the above rules would be kind of funny, but they just aren't in there nor are any other rules like it.

Let's compare editions.

3rd Edition social skills: Diplomacy, Bluff, Intimidate, Gather Information, Sense Motive.

(I don't rule Perform as such because by the rules Perform checks simply generated GP... they had no actual effect in social situations.)

4th Edition social skills: Diplomacy, Bluff, Insight, Intimidate, Streetwise.

Hmmm... same number of skills.

3rd Edition Diplomacy = 4e Diplomacy.
3rd Edition Bluff = 4e Bluff.
3rd Edition Intimidate = 4e Intimidate.
3rd Edition Gather Information = 4e Streetwise.
3rd Edition Sense Motive = 4e Insight.

Ok... our skills function the same ofr social situations... Maybe the explanations for the skills in 4e say that they don't work outside of combat?

Bluff: "You make a bluff check to fast-talk, con a merchant, gamble, pass off a disguise, or fake documentation, and otherwise tell lies." (4e PHB, page 183.)

Nope... nothing requiring you to be in combat there, though they DO have rules for using Bluff in combat.

Diplomacy: "Make a Diplomacy check to change opinions, to inspire good will, to haggle with a patron, to demonstrate proper etiquette and decorum, or to negotiate a deal in good faith." (4e PHB, page 183.)

Huh. Not even rules mentioning combat. They DO mention that most Diplomacy checks will take place in Skill Challenges though.

Insight: "You make an insight check to comprehend motives, to read between the lines, to get a sense of moods and attitudes, and to determine how truthful someone is being." (4e PHB, page 185.)

It mentions that using Insight against Bluff in combat is a minor action... but that's it so far as combat goes.

I'm stopping at this point because I think my point about social skills is clear. 4e has the same number, the same uses (actually some of them do more than just social interaction... Insight can determine if an effect is illusionary for instance). And 4e characters have greater access to these skills; Fighters have Streetwise on their class list for instance, not just Intimidate. So now I have a skill meant to represent that my Fighter is competant at chatting people up in bars and town for information!

So how does 4e not facilitate roleplaying? Oh, right, it insists that you ROLL instead of ROLE play... How? Because it doesn't have a "profession" skill? Shit, that's easy. Open up the PHB2 and read the section on Backgrounds... you want to be a carpenter in addition to whatever class you are? Ok... you are! Now exactly what effect do you want that to have on the game?

The real answer is... it doesn't have one. How many times is being a carpenter going to come into play? Or a baker, or anything else that you can't ROLEPLAY THE SITUATION OUT? Having a "Profession" skill just gives you a way to roll situation away.

4e introduces actual rules for REWARDING roleplaying social situations through skill challenges. Wait, you say, those rules just encourage you to roll for results! No. Read the section again. When you make your skill checks the rules encourage you to NARRATE the results. They encourage the DM to prompt players to explain HOW they use a skill for that situation. This is roleplaying. It isn't amateur acting, but it IS playing to a role. It encourages you to use the DM's best friend rule to award a +2 or -2 to the check for creative use of the skill check (like maybe a rousing speech?). And then it tells the DM how they can award XP to a party for going through this social interaction instead of just killing the NPCs and taking their stuff.

They had rules for that in previous editions.... wait, not really. They had "story XP" that you saw in modules, but no real guidelines on how to award it.

If your group wants to run 4e as a skirmish tactical game they can... and it'll be a hell of a lot of fun for your group! If they want to narrate every conversation and ignore skill checks for the results they can, but they won't find rules for it (nor will they in any RPG that I know of). If they want to narrate their social actions and then make a skill check they can.

There's as much roleplaying as there always has been.

End of Demented Rambling.

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